ORIGINAL PROPOSAL:

I received a comment about what St. Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 14: 33-35

"As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

It is popularly taken as a way of disgracing and keeping women down.

As always, context and history are vital.

Thoughts?


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I just want to thank everyone who responded to the previous journal(above). No matter what your position was, I appreciate you taking the time. I came away a little wiser, seeing the different conceptions on the matter.

All I can say is, t'was a good Bible study. The best kind of study is when you are challenged to wrestle with the bible. I believe that is how God would have it. It's not a book you can just glance at and get. It requires you chew it, digest it, and even regurgitate it and chew it again like a cow chewing cud. Gross but true

I though I'd post a few responses which I thought took the context into consideration and essentially nailed it:


~flyingfox560 Jun 18, 2009, 12:02:20 PM
I think it is important to consider the fact that this Book in The Bible was actually a letter to one specific Church. The one in Corinth. As such, when one examines the verses before and after the one in question, it becomes evident that Paul was addressing a problem with order in the Church. Apparently, there was a great deal of disruption there which seemed to be contributed by outbursts from some of the women in the Church. The reason I feel this way is from what Paul wrote to Timothy:

KJV 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Again, he is speaking specifically to a pastor, and I believe this verse is referring to a Church service. What catches my attention is the word 'usurp'. Usurp means to take away authority rightly owned by another. Now, I don't think this is referring to authority held by all men. If a pastor is speaking, and someone jumps up and shouts him or her down, it usurps their authority. Hence, I think Paul was talking about outbursts from people in the Church not recognized as having a particular office and not authorized to speak over those who did. In this particular case, it appears to have been a group of women, but in my opinion, this could also apply to a group of men disrupting the service. Paul was very much in favor of equality in the Church:

KJV Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Just my 2 cents, Tazi. Wonderful Topic!


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~VirGnarus Jun 18, 2009, 6:42:50 PM
Wow, a LOT of responses in around half a day.

Popetank is right, recognize context. Paul in this chapter was referring to women utilizing the spiritual gift of tongues and prophecying. As clearly evident in history, even women were often times prophets and would boast prophecies, but it was not to be done during church services in order to retain order. Much of 1st Corinthians was on the idea of instilling order into the Corinthian church, since schisms and just general dissonance caused much of a ruckus that Paul had to write to em about it. Obviously this is no longer applicable directly because this was during the apostolic era when tongues and prophecy were still existing spiritual gifts.

However, this is still applicable indirectly to recognizing that women still should not be established with authority in the church over men, so female pastors, deacons and teachers over male groups is pretty much a no-no. This is emphasized on in other multiple passages (1 Timothy 2:9-15 i.e.). While this would paint a somber color onto women at first, women don't realize that while they were never designed for leadership, they were gifted in other aspects, and Paul gives child-bearing as one perfect example of a gift given by God that men cannot accomplish. They are also spiritually more sensitive, as you can tell in the Gospels alone that it seemed the women always knew what was going to happen to Jesus while the disciples were blind as a bat.


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~JCServant Jun 18, 2009, 10:57:54 AM
The Bible indicates that men and women are equal in His sight, but serve different roles.

Imagine, for a second, a football team. During the huddle, the wide receiver says, "Quarterback, I'm tired that you get to do all the talking during these huddles. I have some good ideas too! We're equal. From now on, I want to call the shots every other huddle!!"

Yeah... you can imagine how well that team will do

In every team, there's usually a leader. Not everyone can be the leader. The christian version of "leader" however, is quite a bit different than the world's, and doesn't carry all of the negative connotations. Jesus was the perfect example, as He is the Head of the church. He spent his life serving the very sheep He lead. He taught them with passion, and poured His heart out to them. Before his death, He washed their feet, the lowest work one could do, in order to show them exactly how one leads in the Body of Christ (though true love). Ultimately, He lead by dying for them, out of love.

Men are called to be the leader in the family relationship, in the Bible. This is not something to be lorded over the family. Indeed, the man is to lead as Jesus leads over the church, according to the Bible. That means that the man must continuously, and sacrificially, pour himself out and serve his family. They follow him happily, not because they HAVE to, but because they respect him so much for loving them so. He carefully listens to each of them, realizing that he can learn even from the smallest in the family. However, when there is conflict about a decision in the family, the final responsibility lies on his shoulders. His continuing servitude and love for his family and his Lord gives him the wisdom and strength to lead with conviction. According to the Bible, his is the final, and greatest responsibility in the family. And, at judgment time, he will be held very accountable. The Bible says that it's better for someone to sink to the bottom of the ocean than to lead a little one to sin. Terrible times await the father/husband who abuses his leadership position for personal gain.


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There were many other comments along these same lines too, once again, thank you, guys.

I think the posts were faithful to the context because these matters come back to the spiritual order put forth in the scriptures.

God > Man > Woman > Children

. . . in terms of spiritual leadership.

See this passage:

Ephesians 5:24-27 (NIV)

"24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless."

This makes the family and ministry dynamic flow and complement in profound ways. Properly exercised in wisdom and love, I have never seen this system fail. Some of the happiest families I've seen exercise this spiritual concept. This is also a picture of how a man cherishes a woman the way Christ cherishes the Church. It is even inscribed in a woman's nature to WANT to be cherished as a man wants to be respected.

Personally, I want my guy to be a spiritual leader. Someone who will look out for me as I help him where I can. I submit to him as he submits to God. And we love each other as God loves us. Do that and you can't go wrong. It's when selfishness and pride infiltrates, that the problems begin (and I am praying ahead of time that I can control myself).

I concur that we are equal, but I also believe men and women have their own unique roles.
I think men and women complement in profound ways. We each also have a little of each other inside, but certain things still remain dominant and hardwired to each of our natures. That is why when the guys are away, women can still pick up the slack because we are flexible and created to be helpers of men. In the same way, men can take good care of children and play with them when the need arises. Children not only survive, but thrive on that(it is also ridiculously cute so guys, do that more).

But it still remains that men tend to be the strength and women, the care, and I think that is beautiful and corruption aside, our culture, media, and society testifies to that as well. I can't help but notice when people use God's formula for anything, it blesses them and they not only survive, but thrive in their spirits.

Regarding the passage in Corinthians, have you considered the context of the rest of the chapter? I think the chapter mentioned problems pastors were having with people standing up in the congregation, rudely trying to usurp their authority. That is pretty disgraceful, and not very gentlemanly or ladylike

Who wants someone standing up and disrupting them when they are trying to teach? That's not even allowed in regular school.

And women going home and having extended discussions with their husbands reminds me of college office hours. There is nothing demeaning about that. It is rather efficient and practical and also a lovely way to spend time together and grow.

Anyway, that wraps up my thoughts for now. It's ben five years and I am still continually learning from this multidimensional book called the Bible. The best selling and, believe it or not, most smuggled and stolen book in the world


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NOW THIS IS A COMPLETELY UNRELATED MATTER.

Just to kill two birds with one stone (what a vile saying).

Those who would like to order art commissions from me, I cannot guarantee I will get around to them any time soon, but a friend brought it to my attention that it would be fair to open a waiting list for a while so that people don't miss my open/close status.

Not that I'm all that great. I simply appreciate the business and the challenges it gives me as an artist. I thank my previous clients from the bottom of my heart.

As for the list, I'm starting now.

Send me a note including your real name, first and last, and e-mail address (don't worry, I won't spam you). I will post a journal letting you know when the list is closed.


Thanks again,

Taz